Ep. 327 - The Doctor Is In Series - Healthy vs. Obsessive Ambition
[00:00:00] Chris: 1953, a group of Yale seniors were surveyed about their life goals, and only 3% had written down their goals. 20 years later, researchers went back to that group and that 3%, they weren't just more successful, they earned more wealth than the other 97% put in place by total. Now, here's the catch. That study never happened.
[00:00:24] Chris: But it's easy to believe 'cause we wanna believe the power of ambition is that strong, that it can change our lives. And that is a topic for today's episode of the Social Engineer Podcast that Dr is in series. This is episode 327. I'm Chris Hadnagy, CEO and founder of Social Engineer LLC, the Innocent Lives Foundation and the Institute for Social Engineering.
[00:00:45] Chris: And my co-host, as always coming up with these great topics is none other than Dr. Abbie. 
[00:00:50] Abbie: I'm Dr. Abbie, the Director of Education at Social Engineer. I'm a behavioral scientist and I specialize in nonverbal communication, behavioral analysis, and [00:01:00] human decision making. 
[00:01:01] Chris: Before we get to our topic, as always, we have a sponsor, which is a social engineer, and I wanna talk about our foundational class coming in February in Orlando.
[00:01:10] Chris: Um, right now I think we're about half full on that class, so if you really are interested in checking that out, go to social-engineer.com. Under training, it's the FASE class, FASE, foundational application of social engineering. We'll be talking about all the foundations, , the psychological principles, the phys, physiological things, nonverbals that are behind making you a great communicator.
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[00:02:24] Chris: And last but not least, give clutch some love 'cause they're their music on the show. We love those guys. Hit 'em up on clutch merch.com and, , tell them how much you appreciate what they do. If you like this episode, give us a thumbs up and a like. Now let us get to our episode here. Okay. So Abbie, we're talking about the difference between obsessive and healthy ambition, but as we always do when we start these conversations, maybe we should just start with like, what is ambition?
[00:02:51] Abbie: Yeah. So ambition isn't just wanting to succeed, it's a sustained motivational drive [00:03:00] towards achievement. Often impact. So in psychology, it overlaps with constructs like achievement, motivation, and goal orientation. But it's also really important that it's connected to identity. And what makes ambition unique is that it ties your goals with your sense of self.
[00:03:20] Abbie: It's not just about a goal pursuit, it's that sense of self. It's not that. Ambitious. People just want to do something. They want to become something. And from a neuroscience perspective, ambition activates the dopamine reward system, and I think this is really, really interesting. It doesn't fire when we reach goals.
[00:03:45] Abbie: It fires when we pursue them. 
[00:03:48] Chris: Hmm. 
[00:03:48] Abbie: So ambition is about the chase, it's the anticipation. It's not about that arrival at the goal, it's about chasing the goal. 
[00:03:56] Chris: That is interesting. So like, I think we've [00:04:00] probably all known people, and I won't call anybody out, but I've known people in my life that, , they're happy with going to a job where you just like kind of press a button every day.
[00:04:08] Chris: Yeah. You know, 
[00:04:08] Chris: you do that for eight hours and then you clock out and you come home and I. Was never that way ever. It was like if a job, if I feel, if I ever in my past felt like, okay, I did everything I can do here. I just quit. I quit because I got bored. Yeah. So why are some people more ambitious than others?
[00:04:28] Abbie: Yeah, I, I agree with what you said completely too. If I'm somewhere that I don't feel I can grow, I have to get out. Yeah. 'cause I feel like I'm trapped in this box. 
[00:04:38] Chris: Yeah. 
[00:04:38] Abbie: Um, some people are happy that way and some people like a, a work-life balance where it's just I do my nine to five and I come home and that's their happy.
[00:04:46] Chris: Mm-hmm. 
[00:04:47] Abbie: But. I would be so unhappy if I can't have constant goal pursuit and constant growth, I would be very, very unhappy. Um, but one, , of the [00:05:00] core things is personality traits. So Chris, you and I are actually very similar in some personality traits and very different in others, but I would say we're both very high in conscientiousness, and that is discipline and goal orientation.
[00:05:13] Abbie: Um, and people who are high in conscientiousness tend to be more ambitious. Um, people who are open to experiences, so are creative and curious. You are a lot more open to experiences than I am. I'm open to experiences that occur within my apartment and not so far out. 
[00:05:36] Chris: , no. I just wrote a camel through the desert in Dubai.
[00:05:40] Abbie: Yes. I mean, I, I travel, but it's. It's different. You are more free and curious and creative, kind of more open. And I like to be in my little study box. Um, so people who are more open to experience do tend to be more ambitious. But again, that's just one trait. Um, there is [00:06:00] also a role of narcissism, and I wanted to mention this too, because people really.
[00:06:06] Abbie: Demonize all narcissistic traits. Narcissism in itself, the clinical disorder is extremely bad to have, but most of us have narcissistic traits, and actually, if you don't have any narcissistic traits, it's very unlikely you'll be successful because narcissism isn't always a pathological thing. But part of narcissism is the drive for uniqueness and the drive for recognition.
[00:06:32] Abbie: And those traits are really important for ambitious people. So having those traits to a certain degree are really important. Um, and then early environment plays a role. So ambition is often formed as adaptive responses to early reinforcement or adversity. And what I always say is that adversity is kind of the road to success.
[00:06:58] Abbie: Um, so if you've [00:07:00] gone through a lot very early in your life and you've pulled yourself out of it, it's very likely that as you grow up, you have that high ambition, that drive because you've been able to pull yourself out of a dark place. So it's like you don't want to go back. Um. And, um, children, there was research that children who grow up in resource scarce or chaotic environments, they develop this need for control of their future.
[00:07:29] Abbie: And often that comes through things like a, a accomplishment. 
[00:07:35] Chris: So, but it's not always a one for one, right? I mean, people can have a, a, a crappy childhood and then get out of it. Be completely not ambitious. 
[00:07:46] Abbie: Yes. Yeah. And all of these things are just factors that can influence and increase likelihood of ambition.
[00:07:52] Abbie: For example, people with insecure attachment, um, they can often turn ambition to a strategy for [00:08:00] earning love and worth, so I must achieve to be valued. There's also culture aspects like in the West. Achievement and ambition is seen as a virtue, but in collectiveness cultures, they're more rewarded for, , group activities than self-focused drives.
[00:08:17] Abbie: So all of these things play a factor in how likely someone is to become ambitious, but I think personality really does play such an important part. 
[00:08:26] Chris: So then let's talk about like destructive ambition, because I think we've all been around people, like I've known people personally that were willing. To destroy relationships.
[00:08:37] Chris: Destroy characters. Yeah. Destroy people. Just to get ahead in life, not caring about the consequences. That ambition, to me, there's an absolute, I can't see a value in that because you, you're crushing other people just to make advancement. 
[00:08:52] Abbie: Yeah. So destructive ambition is. Um, really a, a personality thing. I would say that that's more [00:09:00] people that lack empathy.
[00:09:02] Abbie: It's not necessarily a classification of ambition. You really have healthy and obsessive and you can have healthy ambition. But also be very narcissistic and be very destructive to other people. Um, because that comes more from the personality factors, lack of empathy than it does necessarily from the ambition.
[00:09:24] Abbie: Like you could have obsessive ambition, um, which we'll talk about where you have this just. Real, just deep, all consuming drive to achieve, but still do it by, um, cooperative. Yeah. And kind means it's not the ambition itself that creates that destruction. That would be the, the personality at core. 
[00:09:48] Chris: Yeah, I mean, I, I've known people that like had good goals, like, I want to move up in the company or I want to become, you know, a, a, a team leader, but they're willing to do that by destroying other people's careers.
[00:09:59] Chris: Yeah. [00:10:00] So it's still a good goal. It's good ambition, but the getting about it. The worst possible way that you can get about it. 
[00:10:05] Abbie: Yeah, and I always say you have the long road and the short road. And the short road is the road where you can manipulate and you can lie and you can say that other people's work is your own.
[00:10:17] Abbie: Um, and you can take other people's opportunities, push people to the side, and when you have opportunities topush someone else under the bus, you do. Mm-hmm. And you take other people's opportunities. And like I said, there often, no, this was my framework and it was there. Yeah. 
[00:10:34] Chris: Yeah. 
[00:10:34] Abbie: And that's the short road.
[00:10:35] Abbie: You might get those really quick wins. Um, and I know speakers like that. There was one that has stolen from me and presented my frameworks as their own. But the long road. May not get you those quick wins. Doing it right, being cooperative, being honest, giving credit where credit is due. Mm-hmm. No, no, that wasn't mine actually.
[00:10:56] Abbie: That was them. Not doing the things, not [00:11:00] selling out, where if you do this job, you get paid a lot, but you're gonna have to do this kind of thing. That's the short road. When you take the long road and do it, honestly, you are more likely to get those end goals because the short road gives you those wins really, really quickly.
[00:11:14] Abbie: So you raise very fast whilst the person on the short road is kind of small step, small step, small step. But you leave reputation behind you. Mm-hmm. And you leave people feeling either positive or negative. And you never know when you meet someone who may give you an opportunity because you were kind, because you have integrity.
[00:11:33] Abbie: And it's like a lot of the jobs now. For example, when the Secret Service reached out to me, they reached out to me because they stated my reputation of, , integrity. 
[00:11:43] Chris: Mm-hmm. 
[00:11:44] Abbie: And because I, I would never say what people want to hear. It would always be what the science says. And eventually you get more wins and more wins and more wins.
[00:11:55] Abbie: And the person that took the short road, they got those first ones, but things [00:12:00] start to drop down. So it's always better when you are, even if you are obsessively ambitious, to always take the long road and do the right thing. And there's a, a quote that it says, um, if you don't have time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?
[00:12:18] 
[00:12:18] Abbie: If you take those shortcuts, you probably won't achieve the things you want to achieve as well. Taking the long road, it might take you longer, but you're going to get those things. You're gonna deserve those things. 
[00:12:29] Chris: And if you get called out by taking the short road, like if, if, if, if, if people find out like that they stole your work or that you didn't reference somebody properly in a writing or something like that, yeah, your reputation is now damaged and it may not be repairable.
[00:12:44] Chris: I mean, I knew a guy once and he actually handled it, , very well. He was pretty well known in the community, and he plagiarized something in a book and he got caught and he publicly outed himself. He was like, yes, I did this. And to [00:13:00] this day, people respect him because he did the dumb thing. But then when he got caught, instead of going, oh no, I didn't.
[00:13:05] Chris: I didn't mean to, or, yeah, he just owned it. He said, yep, I did it. I did it. I did it. I was stupid. It was a dumb moment in my life. Kind of like when I make jokes of myself quoting Wikipedia in my first book. It was a stupid thing to do. Right? Yeah. It was a really stupid thing to do, but I don't hide it. I don't say, Oh no I was forced to do it.
[00:13:23] Chris: Yeah, no, I made a dumb mistake. And I'll live with it forever 'cause it's there. Right? 
[00:13:27] Chris: Yep. 
[00:13:28] Chris: But I, some people, they, they do the thing like, steal your work or whatever, and then they buckle down like, , no, this is mine. You know? Or I helped her do it. Um, I was, I, I was in meetings with her when she came up with it, you know, so I have part ownership of it, you know, and like, things like that.
[00:13:43] Chris: And it's like, you, you ruin your reputation and people won't respect anything else you say after that. 
[00:13:49] Abbie: Yep. 
[00:13:50] Chris: And if they do, then those are the people you don't wanna be with anyway. 
[00:13:53] Abbie: Exactly. 
[00:13:54] Abbie: Yeah. There 
[00:13:55] Abbie: was, um, a, , a business leader, I can't remember her name, but she [00:14:00] did, um, , a presentation and she talked about how she got some backlash for firing an employee because he had cheated on his spouse.
[00:14:10] Abbie: And she said that the backlash was, people say, well, that's none of your business. And she said, that's untrue because it's a character flaw and if they cheat on their partner, right. They would cheat on your business. 
[00:14:23] Chris: Yes. 
[00:14:23] Abbie: And it's like I said, it's not the ambition that's the problem where it becomes destructive.
[00:14:29] Abbie: It's the personality of the person carrying that ambition. Yeah. 
[00:14:34] Chris: Well, we've known, we've, we've had, I mean, you and I know people that were willing to ruin marriages to get ahead in life and that eventually, when that comes out. You ruin trust, you ruin. I mean, I could never work with a person that was, and I'm not saying if you make a mistake, I hate you, but that willingly, this is their character.
[00:14:53] Chris: They're gonna go do this because they want to, you know, I'm not talking about someone who, you know, makes a, makes a mistake and they can correct it with [00:15:00] their spouse. That's a different story. But this is, you know, that kind of activity just really does make me feel like how you, why would you not screw me over?
[00:15:08] Chris: Yes. Right. If you're willing to do that to someone that you said, I'll love you for all eternity. Until death do us part. But you're willing to do that? Yeah. Not, not a very good way to go. But let's get back to the non-destructive ambition. Yeah. So we have the, we talked about before, we have two different kinds of people, right?
[00:15:26] Chris: So we have the person who, I don't mind not being ambitious at all. I go do my job, I come home, I'm happy just doing the same thing every day. And then we have the people who have all these goals in life, and they're not satisfied unless they're being challenged. Can someone who has no ambition, can they become ambitious?
[00:15:47] Abbie: Yeah, you can. Um, you can definitely develop ambition. Um, often it, it has to come internally though, um, because [00:16:00] ambition is tied to intrinsic goals like growth mastery. It's not about getting the thing that's just goal pursuit. And go pursue in terms of extrinsic goals. I want money, I want things, I want to chase the success.
[00:16:16] Abbie: That's all extrinsic, has nothing to do with the self. 
[00:16:19] Chris: Mm-hmm. 
[00:16:20] Abbie: And for someone who is ambitious, it's got to come from within. And it aligns with self-determination theory, which is about. Driven by, you are driven by competence and autonomy. You want to make yourself something novel. Something unique. 
[00:16:37] Chris: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:38] 
[00:16:38] Abbie: That's a hard thing to teach, but you can develop ambition, but it's to do with self-reflection. So it's what is it that I want to leave? Hmm. What is it that I want my legacy to be? It's not about developing a skillset, it's about really being [00:17:00] hungry for that, that growth. Now, obsessive ambition is kind of what we idolize.
[00:17:06] Abbie: Um, and on social media, it won't take long if you just go on your newsfeed. Someone's there with a Ferrari. Yeah. Someone's there holding a stack of money. You wanna be successful like me. 
[00:17:18] Chris: Yep. 
[00:17:19] Abbie: And. It can really drive this, oh, well if I don't have all of these things, money, fame, power, validation, I am not worth enough.
[00:17:30] Abbie: Say that again. 
[00:17:33] Chris: Social media is terrible at feeding that. 
[00:17:35] Abbie: Yes, it is. It makes us feel like if we don't have those things, we're not good enough. Yeah. And we're not doing enough and we're not successful. And I, I had to learn this the hard way. I do a lot like I, I work really, really hard and I have objectively achieved quite a lot in my career.
[00:17:54] Abbie: All I have to do is look on social media and I feel about this big. Yeah. 
[00:17:57] Abbie: And I feel so 
[00:17:58] Abbie: unsuccessful. [00:18:00] You look at these people doing these huge things and you think I'm doing nothing with my life. 
[00:18:04] Chris: Right. 
[00:18:04] Abbie: You know the amount. You're all like in 
[00:18:06] Chris: their twenties and I'm 52 and I'm like, what the heck? This guy's driving two Ferrari and I've Yeah.
[00:18:11] Chris: Barely even stepped foot in one. You know? 
[00:18:13] Abbie: Yeah. And you know the amount of conversations you and I have had about, you know, both of us feeling like we're not doing enough with our life, and if we're, yeah. Not working seven days a week, we're not working hard enough and we don't have X, Y, Z that these people do.
[00:18:27] Abbie: So what are we doing wrong? And a lot of that is this. Obsessive ambition that can be triggered. It can take us out of healthy ambition of, I'm doing it because I want to make a difference because I want to have an impact. And then it's that, and then we add on. And if I don't do it, I don't have value. 
[00:18:49] Abbie: And if 
[00:18:49] Abbie: I don't do it, I'm not worth enough.
[00:18:52] Abbie: If I don't do it the way they do it, then I'm not successful enough, and that's when it can become really all consuming [00:19:00] and identity defining. I 
[00:19:02] Chris: think about, um, the, the first part of this conversation when you said it has to be internal intrinsic. And for me, that kind of reminds me of, you know, I've always been goal oriented.
[00:19:12] Chris: I've always been ambitious, but I also got really, really unhealthy in my life. Hmm. And it was four years ago that I made the dec, I made the decision and it wasn't 'cause Areesa asked me or my kids asked me, or a friend asked me because I got tired of being that person. I got tired of being overweight and outta breath and not able to do things that I should be able to do for my age.
[00:19:34] Chris: And I was like, I'm, I'm done. And it was that internal goal that actually, 
[00:19:41] Chris: yeah, 
[00:19:41] Chris: made me go on that health journey for four years so far, you know? And now it's not even a goal anymore. Now it's more just a lifestyle so that it became a goal and now it became part of my life, you know, that that is now something I look forward to.
[00:19:54] Chris: And. You know, I, I achieved the goal, but I, I've been like, yeah, I achieved it. I'm done. It's like, no, you [00:20:00] said another one. Like, now I wanna be able to lift this or do that, or, I wanted to run a 5K and I did. You know, I'm like, oh, that was kind of cool. I'll never do that again. You know? Yeah. You know, but you do it, you know, and it's kind of, it, it's like you said, it has to come from the inside because then it means something to you.
[00:20:17] Abbie: Yeah. And if someone just says, Hey, do this, do this, do this. It doesn't necessarily motivate ambition. Mm. Yeah. It just motivates the pursuit of that thing, not that identity. It doesn't make you want to change yourself, it just makes you want to obtain the thing. 
[00:20:36] Chris: Mm-hmm. Um, 
[00:20:37] Abbie: and like I said, a lot of it comes from a adversity.
[00:20:40] Abbie: And when I look back to my childhood, 'cause I am someone that's, I'm very driven. I have to keep achieving. When I look back to my childhood, I was never handed anything. It was always fend for myself, and I learn at a very, very young age. It doesn't matter what you're going through, it [00:21:00] doesn't matter how bad life gets, how much you are desperate for help, nobody's coming.
[00:21:06] Chris: Mm. 
[00:21:06] Abbie: You have to just do it yourself. So I learned very early on to get up and just get on with it. My ambition comes from not wanting anybody else to be in the position that I was in with no hand helping them. So my ambition is I want to be that hand for people. So it can manifest in very different ways.
[00:21:27] Chris: Yeah. And 
[00:21:28] Abbie: for me it's that adversity made me not want other people to go through that same adversity, you know? And the same for you in terms of your struggles motivates you. To now want to be the best version of yourself. 
[00:21:42] Chris: And that's, that's why ILF exists. 
[00:21:44] Abbie: Yes. 
[00:21:44] Chris: Right. And very reason ILF exists is my childhood.
[00:21:48] Chris: So, 
[00:21:48] Abbie: exactly. And this is why I say adversity is almost a gift because the adversity we go through can create that ambition. To not allow other people to [00:22:00] go through the same thing and to help other people. And that's something that's very, very hard to teach. Yeah. It doesn't mean you can't be ambitious if you 
[00:22:09] Abbie: haven't 
[00:22:09] Abbie: had struggles, but it just means when you meet very, very successful people. What you will tend to find is they've had difficult lives. They've had difficult periods of their lives. Most of the people who I know who are the fittest, most athletic people. We're out of shape growing up. 
[00:22:30] Chris: Mm-hmm. 
[00:22:30] Abbie: And it 
[00:22:31] Abbie: was that, that inspired them to get healthy rather than always kind of being in the middle ground and then suddenly getting healthy.
[00:22:38] Abbie: They had the adversity, they had the struggle. They went through it, they pushed through it, and it made them want to keep pushing. 
[00:22:45] Chris: Yeah. I, I like what we were you, you were saying before is because I think it's easy to look at the internet now and to think that all these people with the perfect lives, quote unquote.
[00:22:56] Chris: Are the kind of ambition I need to be. 
[00:22:59] Chris: Yeah. 
[00:22:59] Chris: But [00:23:00] that's, to me, um, looking at that, it's just so empty. 
[00:23:05] Abbie: Yes. 
[00:23:06] Chris: You know, it's like, so what? So what if I could someday afford to buy a Ferrari? I do that. That doesn't. Mean anything except that I was able to spend $250,000 on a car. That's all it, that's all it means, right?
[00:23:18] Chris: Yeah. But it doesn't change who I am or anything like that. But when you see those ads or those, those accounts, I think it's easy, like you said, to look at yourself and, and if you fall for that trap, you know, hopefully many people are getting out of that. But you fall for that. You start thinking, man, what am I doing with my life?
[00:23:34] Chris: I, 
[00:23:34] Abbie: yep. 
[00:23:35] Chris: I've been working my butt off and I can't afford a Ferrari. 
[00:23:37] Abbie: We idolize the high life, but it has a high price. Yeah. And that's usually feeling connected because when you, I have money, I have this, I have this, I have this. You're presenting yourself in a certain way. You are going to attract a certain kind of person.
[00:23:55] Abbie: So if you are looking for real connections with friendships, through relationships, and [00:24:00] look, I have money. Look, I have this, I have this. You are going to attract people that are looking for those things. 
[00:24:05] Chris: Yeah. 
[00:24:05] Abbie: And then your relationships are gonna be very empty. And also money buys pleasure and opportunity and it can buy health.
[00:24:15] Chris: Yeah. 
[00:24:15] Abbie: But it, it, it really just highlights personality traits because I hear people say things like, oh, well, if I had this amount of money, I would do all this work for charity. And I always asked her, well, what do you do now? Oh, well, I, I don't have the money too. Well, then you wouldn't when you have the money because it's relative.
[00:24:34] Abbie: For example, I am a sucker for an R-S-P-C-A AD anything with a sad cat on it. I donate, I I have adopted donkeys. I've adopted all sorts of random animals. 'cause I'm a sucker. I just am, but my whole family are, all of us own , adoptions and monthly subscriptions to all kinds of animal things because show us a sad cat, sad [00:25:00] dog.
[00:25:00] Abbie: Done. Here's the money. We're all just like that. So say you have a hundred dollars and you donate five, now you have $10,000, you're gonna donate that same percentage. 
[00:25:14] Chris: Yeah. 
[00:25:15] Abbie: What makes you think. That if you get all this money in, you would suddenly donate because it becomes relative. That becomes your normal.
[00:25:24] Abbie: If you don't, now that percentage that you give, you probably wouldn't. So again, it's, it's not about the things, it's about the personalities and then the, the money gives you the opportunity to have those things. So that's why often example or highlights, personality traits, if you're someone that craves power.
[00:25:45] Abbie: If it doesn't have it, and then you get a little bit of money, those traits now really come out. Um, but that's a price to pay. And that lifestyle that is just obsessive ambition over things and [00:26:00] money and very artificial things, it's very empty because you see them. Because you think, when I get this, I will feel worthy when I get this, people will love me.
[00:26:11] Abbie: When I get this, people will desire me. And what you realize they desire the things. Yeah. They don't. Value you as a person. So that's why you often see people who get a large influx of money spend it and become very, very unhappy. 
[00:26:29] Chris: Yeah. 
[00:26:29] Abbie: Because they think that they can buy meaningful things and you can't.
[00:26:35] Chris: I was reading an article once that said, um, being materialistic. It is not about how much money you have, it's your attitude towards money. Yes. So even very poor people could be materialistic because that's their, that's their goals and achievements is just to gain, gain, gain. And it doesn't mean if someone who's rich is automatically materialistic.
[00:26:55] Chris: It was an interesting article. 'cause it was like, yeah. So you look at that and they use an analogy of like, [00:27:00] someone who, um, , who, who is a glutton, you know, with food. 
[00:27:04] Chris: Yeah. 
[00:27:05] Chris: They don't have to be fat. Right. Someone can, someone can be gluttonous. I mean, not every, not every overweight person is a glutton.
[00:27:10] Chris: Right. And not, and not every glutton is overweight. It could be someone can strive just to eat, eat, eat. But they're in a very poor country, so they can't, they can't afford it. Yes. So it is a mindset kind of thing. 
[00:27:21] Abbie: It isn't often the obsession to be successful and have these things can keep you unsuccessful and they can lower you down.
[00:27:28] Abbie: So, for example, if you are a male, and there's this competition between men, often more than there are women, , to show these status symbols, and often people spend a lot of money to show a status symbol. To show, look how much money I have, but they spend money that they don't have to show that they have it.
[00:27:50] Chris: Yeah. 
[00:27:51] Abbie: So they're not able to actually use that money to make more money. I remember, um, back when I lived in the uk, um, there was a [00:28:00] friend of mine and he still lived at home with his parents, but he would spend his rent or his, um, money not on rent of his own, but on designer clothes 
[00:28:10] Abbie: to 
[00:28:10] Abbie: show people, look how much money I have.
[00:28:13] Abbie: Look at the things I have. But you know, you could have spent that money on things, you know, towards a house deposit or things that actually matter. So the desire to look a certain way to show people, look how much I have can actually stop you from having those things. 
[00:28:30] Chris: It's funny, like when you see pictures of really famous people that are very wealthy.
[00:28:36] Chris: Their everyday life. They're usually wearing sweatpants in a ball cap. Yeah. Like they're not, you know, they're not walking around in Gucci and you know, Louis No. You know, they're, they're like, they're, they're literally walking around in sweatpants, look like every other person. And then you can always tell like the lower to middle class people who, who have that desire because they're trying to look like they make millions of dollars a year.
[00:28:57] Chris: Yes. But you know, it's like when you look at that, you [00:29:00] really kind of see that, that dichotomy. So. So how do we make peace with ambition? What, how? What's the method that we can do that? If you're sitting here listening to this discussion, 
[00:29:10] Abbie: well, you want to work with your ambition. You don't wanna be consumed by it.
[00:29:16] Abbie: So it's really important to redefine success regularly. Because you can have this idea of what success means, but if you don't update your definition, your goals can become outdated to the version of you you used to be. And I, I say this because we all grow and our, our situations change. I know I've grown a lot over the past two years in very different ways.
[00:29:40] Abbie: And the person that I was two years ago and the things I wanted two years ago, very different now. Very different than what I want now. And if you don't update what your idea of success is. Then how are you going to know what to pursue? And asking yourself things like, is this still what I want, or has it [00:30:00] become what I need to survive something earlier in my life?
[00:30:05] Abbie: And I would prioritize the process over the outcome. So focusing on the quality of your efforts behind the work, focusing really on, am I doing the work right, rather than how quickly can I get this thing done? 
[00:30:21] Chris: Yeah. Um, I agree with that because I think over the years, for, for me personally, um, things have changed drastically.
[00:30:28] Chris: Every, you could, I may, I wouldn't even say every year, even throughout the years, you know, like, I mean, now Areesa and I are empty nesters, no kids at home. But when they were here, our goals were very different, you know? 'cause we had to worry about them. And it was always like, okay, if we're gonna go do this or do that, what, what about the kids?
[00:30:43] Chris: And that now they're both adults and outta the house. And it's like, well now our goals have changed. Things are different for us here. So it's. I think it's very smart to constantly look at your life and to adjust, because the goals I had, let's say pre COVID 
[00:30:58] Chris: mm-hmm. Um, 
[00:30:59] Chris: for [00:31:00] business, for my life, for everything, are completely different than what I have right now.
[00:31:05] Chris: And if you don't adjust, I think, man, if I had the same goal now that I had pre COVID, let's say for, for for secom, I would be depressed. I would be depressed because that the world has changed. My company has changed. I have changed. And if I was still trying to pursue that same goal, I'd be sitting here like, I'm a failure because it's not gonna happen.
[00:31:24] Chris: So I have to, you have to adjust. 
[00:31:27] Abbie: And that also comes with our values can change. I have always valued being independent more than anything, and as I've kind of grown in a different direction now, I value connection more than I ever have, and that changes things 
[00:31:47] Chris: Mm-hmm. 
[00:31:47] Abbie: Because if I just focused on my previous idea of what success means, it does not allow any room for another person in that.
[00:31:55] Chris: Yeah. 
[00:31:55] Abbie: So as your values change, and it's okay for your values to change, it's okay for your core [00:32:00] values, for your goals, all of it to change. It's okay for you to change. You don't have to stick to, well, this was my idea of success. Yeah, it's okay to change it and update well, what feels more in line with who I want to become now.
[00:32:16] Abbie: And there's no right or wrong, it's so individual. And allow for rest and identity outside of achievement. 
[00:32:24] Chris: Yeah, we both suck at that. 
[00:32:26] Abbie: This is something, Chris, you and I need written on a piece of wood and smacked over our head with ambition should be a part of you, not all of you. 
[00:32:35] Chris: Yeah. Well, because it's, it's, for me, it's easy.
[00:32:37] Chris: Like once I achieve the goal, okay, what's next? And not to take a moment to be like, why don't we celebrate this success like we did the thing. You know what I mean? We did the thing, you know, we're talking about before we started recording is the, the team right now is so dialed in and it's so like, this is what I've been looking for for 15 years of owning this company.
[00:32:59] Chris: I've [00:33:00] been looking for a team that is just like the one we have now, and that needs to be like celebrated a little bit because that is a big accomplishment. You know, sadly it took 15 years to get there, but like to have everybody dialed in. So much and achieving personal goals and achieving, um, goals in their life that they're happy for, you know, like that, that's like, that's amazing to me.
[00:33:23] Chris: But yeah, we should stop and celebrate that instead of like, okay, well we did it. Now what's next? 
[00:33:28] Abbie: And actually that is a, a great point to kind of finish up with of how do you recognize if you are in healthy or obsessive? 
[00:33:36] Chris: Hmm. 
[00:33:37] Abbie: If every time you achieve, you don't feel happy. I realized that I needed to work on my ambition because after I would achieve a life goal, for example, when I trained the Secret Service for the first time on my own and they gave me an award, I came home and I looked at it and I was sad.
[00:33:57] Abbie: I wasn't happy.
[00:33:58] Chris: I was remember 
[00:33:59] Abbie: because [00:34:00] instantly it was like, now I need to do more, 
[00:34:03] Abbie: and 
[00:34:03] Abbie: I felt again this big. I thought I would feel huge. I felt very successful for a moment, and then I felt more unsuccessful than I ever had because I'd already moved the goalposts so far of what needs to come next.
[00:34:17] Chris: Yeah. 
[00:34:17] Abbie: So when you are unable to achieve and then celebrate and stop and congratulate yourself. And you instantly find yourself of what's the next thing? That's where you need to pause and go, okay, I've moved out of healthy ambition. 
[00:34:32] Chris: Mm-hmm. 
[00:34:33] Abbie: It's now feeling like I need to do these things to be worthy. So let me pause and let me figure out why I'm in this space.
[00:34:40] Chris: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a good, that's a good point. Um, and, and as always, people, um, Dr. Abbie has, , given, , quite a few references, , that we'll put into the show notes so that you can look at these if you're interested in the science behind the stuff that we spoke about today. And, um, and, and then next month we have a really [00:35:00] cool topic.
[00:35:00] Chris: We're discussing cognitive dissidence. , that's, I'm, I'm excited about that one. So, , we're, we're gonna have a, another great conversation around all this, but, um, hopefully everyone's staying safe out there and, , making some good goals. And this podcast hopefully helped you to do that. So, until next month, stay safe.
[00:35:19] Chris: See you.