Ep. 335 - The Doctor Is In Series - Is That Person Really a Psychopath
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[00:00:00] Chris: I'm sure you've been in a group conversation before where someone said, I think that guy's a psychopath. We use that term a ton today, and that is a topic of the episode of the Doctor is in Series from the Social Engineer podcast number 335. I'm Chris Hadnagy, CEO and founder of Social Engineer, LLC, the Innocent Lives Foundation and the Institute for Social Engineering.

[00:00:22] Chris: And this podcast has been around since 2009. And as always with the Doctor Is In Series, we have our resident doc with us, uh, co-hosting. Abbie, nice to have you. 

[00:00:31] Dr. Abbie: Great to be here. Chris. I'm Dr. Abbie. I'm the director of education at Social Engineer, specialize in nonverbal communication, trust, and human decision making.

[00:00:42] Chris: So if you're interested, we have a FASE class coming up. That's the foundational application of social engineering in February. It's just next month. So you might have a little more time when you're listening to this to get signed up. If you haven't yet, go to Social-Engineer.com to check out details on it.

[00:00:56] Chris: It's a four day class that will help you master communications understanding. [00:01:00] How we make decisions, why we make decisions, and then being able to use influence principles in a very ethical manner, whether you're a social engineer or your manager, hr, just learning how to communicate better. This class is really great, so if you wanna go check out the syllabus and some other information.

[00:01:13] Chris: Social-engineer.com. You can go to the training section and you'll find some information there under the FASE class. It's February nine through 12, I think. So you wanna get signed up pretty quick from when you're listening to this. Uh, as always, I wanna invite everyone to take a, take a, a chance to go look at the mastermind group.

[00:01:30] Chris: Uh, it's a growing group of people that around the globe that are just joining us in, in a social engineering mastermind. We're talking about all different types of topics. Uh, our first webinar, we, we talked about using elicitation principles. Um, our. Our last webinar was talking all about how to communicate, especially when you're with your family.

[00:01:48] Chris: Uh, we know this time of year, the past time of the year, last month, everyone's getting together all the time. There's usually arguments and fights, so how can you utilize good communication skills when you're with your family? If you're interested in topics like [00:02:00] that, you can go check out the mastermind group and see if it's something that you would enjoy joining.

[00:02:04] Chris: You can go to social-engineer.com to find that out. I wanna invite everyone to go check out innocentlivesfoundation.org. Really proud of the group there. I mean of, plus we just had a great win. We found, um, we found a, a really awesome donor that's been helping us out. Uh, we, we have, uh, fully functioning team back as we always did it.

[00:02:22] Chris: First, we always had volunteers, but now we have Erin back on the team, so we're super happy about that. And our mission continues. We're over 590 cases at this point, uh, where we've handed into law enforcement. And that means that we've helped Geolocate and. Track people who traffic children or create child abuse material.

[00:02:39] Chris: That's our mission. We do this in a non vigilante way, and law enforcement has accepted those cases from us, from around the globe. So we're really proud of the work being done there. If you're a parent or a caregiver and you have a a situation, you talk to your kids about these things, you're not sure how to do it, then you can find some information, videos, other things.

[00:02:56] Chris: Uh, Dr. Abbie has written two books, uh, that can help talk to [00:03:00] very young kids about how to discuss these very difficult topics. So if you go to innocent lives foundation.org, you can find information on Dr. Abbie's books or other other things that can help you as a parent or a caregiver. And of course, if you wanna help us, then you can donate to our cause and you can find all that information on innocent lives foundation.org.

[00:03:18] Chris: And last but not least, if you like, the music's none other than the band Clutch. We know that I'm a big fan. I have been since I was 17, and even a bigger fan since eight years ago. Neil, the lead singer, helped me start the ILF. So we're really proud of them and their support with us too. If you like this episode, give us a thumbs up or a like, and as always, we're begging for you to tell us your topic ideas when you send those in, that helps Abbie and I come up with different topics that might be interest of you.

[00:03:42] Chris: Uh, and even if it's not for this episode or this series, it could be for other topics that you might be interested in with any of our series. So with that being said, Dr. Abbie, how did we come upon this topic today? 

[00:03:55] Dr. Abbie: This one is one that I think both you and I [00:04:00] had had a conversation about. Um, people are always saying things like, oh, my ex was a narcissist.

[00:04:05] Dr. Abbie: Oh, my parent's a narcissist. And then now we've kind of transitioned to this person's a psychopath. Everybody is a psychopath. And it bothers me because we clinicalize things that don't need to be clinicalized. So I thought it'd be a great topic to jump into of what is psychopathy and do we overuse the term?

[00:04:28] Chris: So let's start there. Let's talk about what is the definition of, of an actual diagnosed psychopath. 

[00:04:34] Dr. Abbie: Well, psychopathy isn't just a casual insult, which is what we often use it as. Um, it is a clinical and forensic diagnosis, so it's assessed using a psychopathy checklist, um, created by Robert Hare. That is the gold standard used in prison courts and research.

[00:04:54] Dr. Abbie: It isn't in the DSM five, it's not a recognized diagnosis in the DSM [00:05:00] five. However, most scientists, uh, especially in the field, will agree that the Robert Hare checklist is the, the gold standard. Um,

[00:05:09] Chris: I'm curious about 

[00:05:10] Chris: that. Why is that not in the DSM five? 

[00:05:12] Dr. Abbie: That's a good question. I don't know. I don't know. I mean, 

[00:05:15] Chris: I've, I've heard about that guy too, and I'm not even in the field and everyone knows that he's the, like, he created the checklist that everybody uses.

[00:05:22] Chris: So why would it DSM five not accept it? 

[00:05:25] Dr. Abbie: There's a lot of debate about what is and isn't in the DSM, uh, and DSM, different variations. DSM five are now, I think, um, there's a lot of back and forth, especially in more recent years of. Is that the standard we should be using for, for mental health? There are things in there that don't seem to make that much sense and clinicalize things that are very normal.

[00:05:49] Dr. Abbie: Um, but I'm not a, a clinical psychologist, 

[00:05:53] Dr. Abbie: right? 

[00:05:54] Dr. Abbie: Um, I don't tend to utilize the DSMI, I do think we [00:06:00] clinicalize things too much. Um, but as I said, most researchers will agree that psychopathy is. A true clinical diagnoses regardless of whether it is in the DSM or not. 

[00:06:14] Chris: So what are some of the key indicators of someone being a a psychopath?

[00:06:18] Dr. Abbie: Yeah. There are specific patterns of traits. It's not just about bad behavior, and there's two main areas that these traits fall into. Personality. So emotional traits and then behavioral traits and personality. Uh, core is superficial charm, manipulativeness, shallow emotions. And then really importantly, a lack of empathy and remorse, and particularly fear, a lack of fear

[00:06:47] Dr. Abbie: And then behavioral traits, impulsivity, and irresponsibility. There's constant need for stimulation and then, uh, repeated rule breaking and of course criminal activity. [00:07:00] Um, for someone to be diagnosed as a psychopath in that framework, they need to show a high number of these traits consistently across their life, not just occasionally.

[00:07:10] Dr. Abbie: We all have periods where we go through things, maybe grief, maybe difficult experiences, and we do things that are not characteristic. For it to be diagnosed as psychopathy, it needs to be consistent across their life. 

[00:07:25] Dr. Abbie: Hmm. 

[00:07:25] Dr. Abbie: Um, and it is recognized in psychiatry under the umbrella of antisocial personality disorder.

[00:07:33] Dr. Abbie: Um, but not everybody, uh, with antisocial personality disorder is a psychopath. Hmm. Um, psychopathy is considered the most severe, a very specific subgroup. 

[00:07:46] Chris: So, is it true that a psychopath cannot feel empathy? 

[00:07:52] Dr. Abbie: Um, it's not that empathy doesn't exist in the brain. Uh, it's that the [00:08:00] connections of the emotional centers to the prefrontal cortex are, uh, dulled.

[00:08:07] Dr. Abbie: So. The main thing with, and remember, there's also different kinds of empathy. So there's effective empathy, which is, I feel your pain. And then there's cognitive empathy, which is, I understand your pain. Um, and they can understand to a degree, people's pain. They just can't feel it. Okay. Um, the main thing though that is really important with um, psychopathy is this lack of fear.

[00:08:34] Dr. Abbie: Because with say, narcissism where there's a lack of empathy, there's still fear. So if I engage in really bad behavior, I still fear the consequence of my actions, psychopathy i dont fear the consequence of my actions. 

[00:08:48] Dr. Abbie: Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:49] Dr. Abbie: Um, and it is not as prevalent as we like to believe. Um, because we like to say, [00:09:00] again, this person's a psychopath and my ex is a psychopath, and that person's a psychopath.

[00:09:05] Dr. Abbie: Um, it's about 1% of people, so it is, I mean, it, it's rare, but it is, that's still a shocking number. You know, 

[00:09:16] Chris: 1% percent, that's 

[00:09:17] Chris: like one out of a hundred. So the amount of times that people use that phrase 

[00:09:21] Dr. Abbie: Yeah, 

[00:09:22] Chris: it, it would, it would be more like one out of every five if, if it was true. Right? 

[00:09:27] Dr. Abbie: Yeah. 

[00:09:29] Chris: Which would then be a really scary world to live in.

[00:09:31] Chris: That would be all i'll say 

[00:09:32] Dr. Abbie: I mean, it's a scary world to live in already. 

[00:09:34] Chris: Yeah. It's a 

[00:09:34] Chris: scary world to live in anyway. So if that's the case, if it's, if it's 1%, then why does it feel like everyone's a psychopath? 

[00:09:43] Dr. Abbie: Well, because we over clinicalize terms. Hmm. Um, so psychopathy is rare, but it does feel like it, it's all around us.

[00:09:54] Dr. Abbie: I, I would say one of the main reasons is that, that lack of understanding, um, [00:10:00] because there isn't a precise definition in psychology. Most people use the term very loosely. Anyone who was cold or selfish or mean-spirited gets labeled as a psycho, even if they don't meet the criteria. And then we have things like mislabeling and media.

[00:10:19] Dr. Abbie: So just go on social media and everybody's calling everybody everything. Yeah. And that's social media popular culture. It really blurs the lines between bad behavior and clinical conditions. Terms like psychopaths, sociopath, narcissists. We throw them around and then what happens is normal conflicts, breakups, toxic traits get pathologized.

[00:10:44] Dr. Abbie: Mm. And when you have really leading people or um, influential people doing this, other people kind of go, oh yeah, I recognize that behavior. So this person must also be a psycho. 'cause they show the same things. [00:11:00] So you may not be doing it to purposely mislabel someone, but you have this misunderstanding of, oh, well they said they're a psycho and I've seen these behaviors before, so maybe they're a psycho too.

[00:11:12] Dr. Abbie: And when someone hurts us deeply, our brains really look for a reason. 

[00:11:17] Dr. Abbie: Mm-hmm. 

[00:11:17] Dr. Abbie: So often it's not purposeful, but calling them a psycho makes their behavior easier for us to explain and to distance ourself from them. You know, I'm not like them. Yeah, they're a psycho. There is a bias. Not everyone who lies, not everybody who cheats or breakups, or people who break our trust has a mental disorder, but we love to say that they do.

[00:11:42] Dr. Abbie: They may be flawed or act out of pain, but they're not necessarily a narcissist or a psychopath. And then I think another big reason is there is this evil equals psychopath myth. Where [00:12:00] culturally we've linked, or culturally, we've linked the term psychopath with evil, so things like serial killers, abusers, villains on tv.

[00:12:08] Dr. Abbie: So every harmful act we think comes from a psycho, like, oh, if they did this, if they killed, they must be a psychopath. And actually people commit really awful crimes. 

[00:12:20] Chris: Yeah, 

[00:12:21] Dr. Abbie: due to anger, ideology, trauma, depression, mental illness. So many other things and not psychopathy, but it can be very difficult to think how can someone do this horrible, horrible thing and not be a psychopath.

[00:12:36] Chris: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:36] Dr. Abbie: But most people who do horrible things aren't a psychopath. 

[00:12:41] Chris: So is it, is it something that people are born with or, or are they created by bad parenting? Or like what, how, how does it, how does it come about? 

[00:12:50] Dr. Abbie: Yeah. Then it's kind of like the ultimate question. Psychopathy isn't born or made it. It's really both.

[00:12:59] Dr. Abbie: [00:13:00] Um, it undeniably has a biological foundation. There are twin studies that show it is highly heritable. And if we look at brain imaging, um, studies consistently show that there are the areas tied to emotional regulation and moral reasoning. Um, there are differences in individuals who work psychopathy. So in the amygdala and prefrontal cortex, like I said, that connection of emotional centers to the, that reasoning center, there are, there are differences between psychopaths and normal individuals.

[00:13:36] Dr. Abbie: Mm-hmm. Um, and that does mean that people are born with a predisposition. Right, but genes are not destiny and that's something we have to remember. Just 'cause something is biologically has a foundation of biology doesn't mean that it absolutely has to be the case. Environment matters. Harsh parenting, abuse, neglect, chaotic environments, [00:14:00] these amplify biological risks.

[00:14:03] Dr. Abbie: Mm-hmm. And then we have positive, stable environments can reduce them. So someone can be born with these traits that lean them towards psychopathy. But whether those traits fully develop often depends on life experience. And, you know, I won't go too deep into the the biology here, but there are some really core elements.

[00:14:24] Dr. Abbie: Um, the amygdala is often smaller and less responsive in people with psychopathy, which is why that Fear center, I talked about fear being a really core element. Think about it. Fear is it is centered in the amygdala. So when the amygdala is smaller, it's must much less active, which makes them, um, less sensitive to other people's distress and less likely to fear feel themself.

[00:14:51] Dr. Abbie: 'cause remember we also understand people's emotions by mirroring emotions. Mm. If you're in distress, naturally I kind of take on that distress. [00:15:00] Psychopaths don't have that same ability. And then the prefrontal cortex, which is the area that helps regulate impulses, anticipate consequences. Like if you're about to send a really angry email, your prefrontal cortex goes, hold up, wait a minute.

[00:15:19] Dr. Abbie: So we don't do that. It goes like, let's think this through. In psychopaths, they don't really have that. Um, it's much less active. It's not that it doesn't work, it works. It's less active, so they have poor impulse control and that difficulty in waiting, like right and wrong. Um, and then finally the, another core element is the reward system.

[00:15:42] Dr. Abbie: So this actually tends to be larger or more active in psychopaths, which is why they seek stimulation, risk taking and reward driven behavior. And then without the fear. And that cognitive decision making of, should I [00:16:00] do this? Should I, should I not? 

[00:16:02] Chris: Anyone who knows me who has been listening to this podcast knows that I started this in 2009 because I love to continually learn, and as a lifelong learning lesson, I've had guests on my podcast.

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[00:17:17] Chris: Yeah, you heard me? That's 50% off at masterclass.com/social engineer. You forgot it one last time. masterclass.com/social engineer. I read something once and I'm not sure if it's true of course, but. I'll bring it up here. Um, it was an article, so it wasn't a science journal or anything that said, some research group found that there was a higher level of psychopathy in surgeons and, um, high powered executives.

[00:17:47] Chris: Now, of course, they weren't the kind of, when we, when we, you first hear that, you think what? These serial killers? No, it was just that. Yep. The things that you just said, those biological traits existed more in those fields than they did in other fields. Do you [00:18:00] think there's truth to that? 

[00:18:01] Dr. Abbie: I think there's truth to that.

[00:18:03] Dr. Abbie: Um, there's obviously a much higher rate of psychopaths in prisons, more than anything, 15 to 25% I think. 

[00:18:10] Chris: Oh, 

[00:18:10] Chris: wow. 

[00:18:11] Dr. Abbie: Um, 

[00:18:12] Dr. Abbie: but in careers that require ruthlessness, it's not surprising that for, for two reasons, once it draws certain personality traits to it. And then the other is that when you have a group of individuals and you need to be ruthless, naturally the ones that aren't able to keep up with that ability will die off.

[00:18:35] Dr. Abbie: They won't make it. So people that have that ability, one and naturally drawn to it, and two, it will survive the process to get to that career. So it wouldn't surprise me. 

[00:18:46] Chris: So what about, um, sex, male versus female? Is there, do we see psychopathy in females a lot? 

[00:18:54] Dr. Abbie: Um, yes, there is a gender difference. [00:19:00] It is much higher, unsurprisingly, in men.

[00:19:03] Dr. Abbie: Yeah. Um, men, 

[00:19:04] Chris: it sounds like you hear all the time, 

[00:19:05] Chris: right? 

[00:19:05] Dr. Abbie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I mean, it, it is, yeah. Um, men consistently show higher rates. It's closer to one to 2%. Community samples, whereas women have much lower rates. It's about 0.3-0.7%. 

[00:19:25] Chris: Wow. Yeah, that's much lower. 

[00:19:26] Dr. Abbie: Um, and 

[00:19:26] Dr. Abbie: in female only prisons, it's about 10 to 15% instead of 15 to 25.

[00:19:32] Chris: Hmm. 

[00:19:32] Dr. Abbie: Um, but there is an important 0.2, that when it comes to gender differences or, or sex differences, the traits show up differently. So in men, because men are naturally predisposed towards things like aggression and overpowering and things like that, women, um, it shows up more in emotional control rather than overt violence.

[00:19:57] Dr. Abbie: So men have more overt violence at their [00:20:00] disposal. Women tend to have that, um, emotional manipulation side. 

[00:20:05] Chris: Interesting. 

[00:20:06] Dr. Abbie: And then there is also a difference in the age. Um, of onset. So, um, psychopathy isn't usually diagnosed in childhood. Um, and I think that there can be precursor traits, but for the diagnosis there has, it has to be that consistency over time.

[00:20:28] Dr. Abbie: So it kind of needs time to see how these traits play out. Um, and it can show up early as kind of callous unemotional traits, like shallow affect. cruelty, lack of empathy. The average age of a formal diagnosis is about early to mid twenties. 

[00:20:49] Dr. Abbie: Hmm. 

[00:20:50] Dr. Abbie: Um, and that's, uh, when individuals enter the justice system.

[00:20:54] Dr. Abbie: Um, there are a lot of myths out there about behaviors that psychopaths show. And a really [00:21:00] common one is this dark triad, not the dark triad. Um. I can't remember what it's called, but when you then have bedwetting, um, killing animals and fire setting, it's kind of those three mm-hmm. Behaviors that people say, oh, if they show all these three, then they're on the dark triad.

[00:21:16] Dr. Abbie: They're a psychopath. And it comes from a misunderstanding of, uh, research. Many, many years ago, um, I've looked into this exact triad of behaviors, uh, bedwetting. There was no correlation. Um, and I looked at the world's largest data set of serial killers. Um, and fine setting. There wasn't a, a clear correlation.

[00:21:39] Dr. Abbie: However, individuals who do cause harm to animals purposefully, that is a trait. If you ever see anybody enjoy seeing an animal in pain, that is something to take absolute note of the, if someone does not like animals, to me, that's always a red [00:22:00] flag. Um, but if you ever see anyone purposefully harm an animal, get away from that first, is what I would say.

[00:22:06] Dr. Abbie: So 

[00:22:07] Chris: I have like a, like a side que, maybe this is not appropriate for the podcast, but I have a side question. Um, and some of the work that we do with ILF where, where targeting groups that are monetizing the sextortion of children and they actually have groups to get in these groups. Um. You have to actually send a video of you crushing an animal.

[00:22:33] Dr. Abbie: Okay. So there are differences in the motivation. So some people will harm animals because it's an a cultural thing and they feel that they have to for cultural reasons. 

[00:22:46] Dr. Abbie: Okay. 

[00:22:47] Dr. Abbie: That's kind of different. It's like, do you remember we talked about, um, on the podcast a while ago, we talked about cannibalism. Um, and there's different kinds of cannibalism on.

[00:22:57] Dr. Abbie: One is survival, where [00:23:00] in a setting where it's either you eat this person or you die. Our instincts are often eat this person, right? In circumstances where we feel we have no other choice, we can do things that don't necessarily reflect our core personality. When it comes to harming animals, the key distinction is the enjoyment of it.

[00:23:19] Dr. Abbie: Mm. 

[00:23:20] Dr. Abbie: If anyone purposefully harms an animal, enjoys it. That's the thing to take note of. Okay. Some cultures harm animals because they feel that they have to, it is a, um, a sacrifice or it's just a social thing that we do for. Uh, some kind of ceremony or whatever the reason. 

[00:23:44] Chris: Yeah. What do you think about like that?

[00:23:45] Dr. Abbie: It's partly different 

[00:23:47] Chris: your heritage in Spain, right? They have bull fighting. 

[00:23:50] Dr. Abbie: Yeah. 

[00:23:51] Chris: Right. It's kind of barbaric. I mean, you're, yeah. You're stabbing this poor animal to death over a, a period of multiple hours, but everyone loves it and they cheer it on. [00:24:00] Right. That, yeah. I wouldn't say that everyone there is a psychopath, right?

[00:24:04] Chris: It's, that's a cultural thing. No. 

[00:24:06] Dr. Abbie: And there is kind of this, um, distancing effect because then we can have the argument of, well, you eat meat, does that make you a psycho? But it's not quite that. It's the, the, you can step back a little and dissociate from the harm of an animal like someone else killing something and then me eating it isn't the same.

[00:24:28] Chris: Yeah, I don't wanna be in the slaughterhouse. 

[00:24:31] Dr. Abbie: Exactly right. 

[00:24:32] Chris: I don't wanna be in the slaughterhouse watching that cow get it, but I'll eat it, but I don't wanna see it. Yeah,

[00:24:36] Dr. Abbie: because we can 

[00:24:36] Dr. Abbie: take a step back. Yeah. We can kind of distance ourself from the harm. 

[00:24:40] Chris: Yep, yep. 

[00:24:40] Dr. Abbie: When, and especially to cats and dogs and bunnies and like animals domesticated are domesticated.

[00:24:49] Dr. Abbie: Yeah. If you see someone harm one purposefully and the enjoyment like as they get away from that person. Mm. That is a completely different psychology. [00:25:00] Then eating meat or feeling you have to do something for cultural reasons. Um, the psychology of that. It feels good to see this thing in pain that is really, really worrying.

[00:25:12] Dr. Abbie: And, um, there's a graduation hypothesis, which is they start small, they kind of graduate, and that's when they start killing people. I remember my dad, um, he knew this woman and she had a little boy and. The little boy had this little spider in front of him and he was pulling legs off and you could see he was kind of enjoying it and my dad was telling me about it and I'm like, that is really concerning.

[00:25:41] Dr. Abbie: Like seeing a behavior like that is a perfect time to go. This is worrying. There is clearly something here that is an abnormal psychology. So lets step in and create some, some interventions before it develops and graduates into something more dangerous. 

[00:25:59] Chris: Yeah. [00:26:00] So does, um, things like that, if you're, you're somebody who starts hurting animals, does it always graduate into homicide, murder?

[00:26:09] Dr. Abbie: No, it doesn't always. We can, uh, intervene. And that is the whole point of understanding behaviors so that we can understand when they start to occur and if there's any point where we can intervene. Someone can show warning signs and as soon as warning signs are there, that's when we go, okay, now we need to create preventative methods.

[00:26:33] Dr. Abbie: Mm-hmm. We need to show how to regulate emotions. 'cause we can be taught to regulate emotions. Most people have no idea how to regulate their emotions. You can't teach effective empathy, 

[00:26:45] Chris: right? 

[00:26:45] Dr. Abbie: But you can teach cognitive empathy. So, uh, and a lot of people who have experienced trauma have reduced activity in their prefrontal cortex, and that can help [00:27:00] exacerbate the predisposition of psychopathy.

[00:27:03] Dr. Abbie: So if we see these warning signs and we see people struggling and in trouble and going down a bad path. We can intervene because of that kind of thing. Like we can regain activity in their prefrontal cortex. We can help them develop skills, we can help them develop emotional regulation, we can build cognitive empathy.

[00:27:21] Dr. Abbie: We can create a support system, and then we can stop these bad things from happening. 

[00:27:27] Chris: You know, I used to, um, there's a conference that no longer exists, but I used to go there and I ran this competition for fun where I hired a, uh, federal polygraph who would come in and. People would try to fool the polygraph.

[00:27:41] Chris: Right Now, we made an announcement every time before we did this that this wasn't legit because a polygraph is always done in a very quiet room without onlookers. Yeah. And the questions were always embarrassing. Like, have you ever peed in the pool? Have you ever parked in a handicap parking lot? You know, have, do you pick your nose?

[00:27:57] Chris: You know, things like that. You know, like yeah. Things [00:28:00] that, that would be embarrassing to answer. And I remember this one person who actually beat the polygraph, the guy actually. Said that she was lying, but she, you know, when we did before, we made people fill out the form, answer the questions, uh, then they had the answer.

[00:28:13] Chris: He couldn't look at them. Then they had to answer the questions to the polygraph, and then we compared. And if it was, you know, opposite, they won. And she was bragging about how, oh, I won because I'm a psychopath. Ooh. And I remember thinking, well, that's. That's a pretty horrible thing to be bragging about.

[00:28:30] Chris: Like, I was like, I don't know if I want you to compete anymore. Like that's a little scary. Right. So, yeah. But I think this is an important topic for this podcast because I think sometimes people also, like, they, they stigmatize it in almost like a badge of honor. Maybe in some ways. Like, like I, I don't, I don't get it 'cause it doesn't make sense to me.

[00:28:47] Chris: Like I would not wanna be labeled a psychopath. 

[00:28:50] Dr. Abbie: It's not necessarily about. The psychopath being the badge of honor. It's the, I'm different. I'm unique. Mm. People love to feel like there's something special about me that [00:29:00] everybody else doesn't have. 

[00:29:01] Dr. Abbie: So I think that that is just 

[00:29:02] Dr. Abbie: the way of, yep. Yeah. You 

[00:29:05] Chris: know, I can think of other ways to be special besides bragging about, yeah, psychopath.

[00:29:09] Chris: I 

[00:29:09] Dr. Abbie: ran really fast. 

[00:29:12] Chris: I murder people for fun. I 

[00:29:14] Dr. Abbie: can, yeah. Something. Other than, than that would be ideal. Yeah. But you know each to their own. Yeah. Okay. 

[00:29:21] Dr. Abbie: Well, so, but 

[00:29:22] Dr. Abbie: it's like if you look at, um, the way society has shifted, mental illness has become almost a badge of honor in so many circles of I am this gender ideology and I have this list of mental health conditions and these are all of my pronouns.

[00:29:39] Dr. Abbie: And 

[00:29:40] Chris: yeah, 

[00:29:40] Dr. Abbie: the more things that make me different than everybody else, the. More superior. I am. And it is a thing that we are seeing develop in society of I have all of these labels, and the more labels I collect, the more I have against me. [00:30:00] So the more special I am and the harder my life is, and it can be an excuse, it can be to be unique.

[00:30:05] Dr. Abbie: Um, and I, I think the, the saddest thing is, what it does is it reduces our understanding of those things. People that actually suffer with those conditions or have been through those experiences. It kind of lessens, um, our empathy towards them because now we are seeing how people overuse the word trauma.

[00:30:27] Dr. Abbie: It's very normal struggles. Everybody struggles and we go, oh, that's trauma, that's traumatic. And then people that actually experience trauma right now, we don't have that same level of care and understanding because we go, oh, well, it, it's not that bad. It's like OCD, like when people go, I'm so OCD because they're a little bit clean.

[00:30:50] Dr. Abbie: Actually my boyfriend literally was saying, do you think im OCD? 'cause he was cleaning his house. And I'm like, do you go to work and you can't function because your house is not [00:31:00] clean? And he is like, no. And I'm like, you're not OCD then. Right? You're just a clean person. 

[00:31:05] Chris: Yeah. 

[00:31:05] Dr. Abbie: But we get so used to like criminalizing very normal behavior.

[00:31:11] Dr. Abbie: It undermines people's true experiences. So it's something if you do it, catch yourself and go, Ooh, you know? And if you don't really know the difference, do some reading because it is quite a dangerous thing. Like we go, they're psychopath. They're a psychopath. Mm-hmm. People that actually have dealt with psychopaths and their exes may be psychopaths, their husband, their wife.

[00:31:34] Dr. Abbie: We don't have that same level of understanding and it kind of diminishes their experiences. 

[00:31:39] Chris: Yeah. Silly example, I remember when I was young, um, when I was your age, that sounds so old. No one had tattoos. Like no one had tattoos, right? Absolutely. No. If you had a tattoo, you were very unique. Like getting a tattoo was not something people did, and it wasn't that it was looked at bad.

[00:31:55] Chris: It just was expensive that like people didn't really do it. If people did it. [00:32:00] They did it in places where it was hidden, you know, they weren't showing it off. And nowadays you're unique if you don't have a tattoo, right? 

[00:32:07] Dr. Abbie: Mm-hmm. 

[00:32:08] Chris: So I think that's kind of like similar to what you were saying. It's like, I remember also being young.

[00:32:12] Chris: If you saw a therapist, you didn't tell anybody. You didn't say. Yeah. You were like, don't tell anyone you see a therapist. They're gonna think you're nuts nowadays. It's like if you, what? You don't see a therapist, what's wrong with you? Like, are you okay? Are you a psychopath? You know, like, yeah. So it does, I do agree with that because you normalizing things that are, that shouldn't be normalized.

[00:32:31] Chris: Right. Could, could make it. Yeah. So that, that kind of leads to a, a last question is every time we see a really gruesome murder on the news. Some something really horrible. Is that always a psychopath that does, that has committed that crime? 

[00:32:45] Dr. Abbie: Yeah. Um, not all People who commit horrific crimes like murder and even murder against family members are psychopaths.

[00:32:55] Dr. Abbie: It's a really hard thing for us to comprehend [00:33:00] of how can you do this if you are not, if you function like I function. Right? Right. How can you do this? Psychopathy is one specific personality profile, and there are many other pathways to violence, emotional dysregulation, and trauma. Some people kill in intense emotion, rage, fear.

[00:33:26] Dr. Abbie: I mean, relationships are one of the biggest reasons why people kill a broken heart. Feeling like trust has been broken, cheating all of these things. Very common reason why people act out impulsively when they're hurt, they're enraged, they're jealous, they're scared. All of these things can drive violent behavior that we see in psychopaths, but not necessarily, and there are obviously psycho, uh, psychotic, uh, disorders like [00:34:00] schizophrenia with delusion.

[00:34:02] Dr. Abbie: Even, uh, severe depression and manic episodes can lead to violence. Mm-hmm. Nothing to do with psychopathy. Um, and then even just situational contexts, like domestic violence situations, you can see someone who is a victim just absolutely break. 

[00:34:19] Dr. Abbie: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:20] Dr. Abbie: And do something so out of character, financial, depre, uh, de uh, desperation.

[00:34:27] Dr. Abbie: People who feel like they have no other option. Um, someone, okay, well if I do this thing, this horrible thing, I'll get paid and I need to feed my family. And extreme stress can lead to very lethal outcomes In all of these situations. People who otherwise show normal levels of empathy can be overwhelmed by circumstances.

[00:34:52] Dr. Abbie: Um, now of course, narcissistic traits, other antisocial personality disorder traits. Borderline traits, [00:35:00] all of those things can also lead to violent behavior. And then I would also say that there are cultural and learned behaviors. So some people are socialized in violent environments, gangs, war zones, abusive families, right?

[00:35:19] Dr. Abbie: And it's not necessarily that they're a psychopath, it's that these acts are learned and they're kind of associated as more normal. So it makes them more likely without necessarily being psychopathic. 

[00:35:34] Chris: So last question, is every serial killer a psychopath? 

[00:35:40] Dr. Abbie: No. 

[00:35:42] Dr. Abbie: No. It's a hard reality that how can somebody kill so much of being a psychopath?

[00:35:48] Dr. Abbie: But there are obviously higher rates of psychopathy in serial killers than in the normal population, as one would hope. You would hope. But no, not every serial killer is a psychopath. [00:36:00] 

[00:36:00] Chris: Huh. I did not expect that answer, actually. So that's interesting. Yeah. Well that. As always, you have, let me take a look. It looks like at least a page of, or page and a half of research material.

[00:36:11] Dr. Abbie: Yeah. I have to say 

[00:36:12] Dr. Abbie: this was a, a topic close to my heart because although my research field is very like, help become successful, be, uh, an empathetic leader, if you look into my research background, it was very different. It's not normal. My background is, is dark psychology. 

[00:36:31] Dr. Abbie: Yeah. 

[00:36:31] Dr. Abbie: Um. I was a professor in forensic psychology, so this field is one very close to my heart.

[00:36:40] Chris: So if you, if you're interested, they'll be in the show notes. But there's a lot of, uh, different research with links to the papers there and, uh, really fascinating. I mean, usually we, we don't go this long, but it's a really fascinating topic that I think hopefully will clear some things up for anyone who listens to the show because, um, we definitely do overuse that next month we have a, [00:37:00] I'm actually excited but not, um, for next month's topic because it's gonna be another therapy session between you and me, it's imposter syndrome.

[00:37:09] Chris: Oh yeah, that's a big one because I think a lot of people, a lot of people deal with that. So it's gonna be a pretty eye-opening conversation. So I'm looking forward to what you find in your research on that. Thanks again, doc for that one. And thank you all for joining us. Hopefully you enjoyed this episode.

[00:37:29] Chris: Give us a thumbs up, a heart or a like if you did, and we'll see you next month. Don't do anything psycho.