Ep. 337 - Security Awareness Series - Using Social Engineering on Yourself with Rosa Rowles === [00:00:00] Chris: We've all heard the statement that dress for the job you want, not the job you have. How important is clothing when it comes to acting as a different person or pretexting? That is a topic for today's podcast. This is episode 337 of the Security Awareness Series of the Social Engineer podcast. I'm Chris Hadnagy, CEO and founder of Social Engineer, the Innocent Lives Foundation and the Institute for Social Engineering. [00:00:24] Chris: And this podcast has been around since 2009, and you can see we have a different co-host today. It's none other than Rosa Rowles. Nice to have you here, Rosa. [00:00:34] Rosa: Thank you for having me, Chris. Um, I've, as you know, been here for about five years now, human risk Analyst, and uh, we do a lot of cool stuff. We do, uh, um, and social engineering risk assessments and I concentrate on vishing, so a lot of vishing on my end here. [00:00:52] Chris: Lot of vishing. Thousands and thousands of vishing calls. So if you're interested in learning more about the work that we do, we have a [00:01:00] foundational application of social engineering class coming up next month. So if you are interested in that, head over to social-engineer.com. This is the very basics of understanding human decision making and communication. [00:01:11] Chris: So it is not just about being a professional social engineer. This is really a communications class and using it in any aspect of your life. Whether it's management, family negotiations, or social engineering. So if you wanna find out more information about what is included in that class, again, it's social-engineer.com. [00:01:29] Chris: And if you haven't heard, we have our mastermind group. Uh, it's growing every month, so we're excited to say that you can come there and join if you're interested in learning more about how you can apply these principles to you personally. It's a private organ- It's a private group where people come in and we discuss social engineering from all different angles. [00:01:46] Chris: So, uh, you can find out more information again on the website, and I wanna invite everyone to take a minute to go to innocent lives foundation.org. If you're not familiar with our nonprofit there, it's been about eight and a half years now that we've been around. And, uh, we work with law enforcement around the [00:02:00] globe to help geolocate people who traffic children and create child abuse material. [00:02:04] Chris: And we're over 590 cases by now. I just really can't say enough good about that. We have a, an amazing educational and outreach department. Uh, they are putting out really great information if you're a parent or caregiver and you're looking to learn how to talk to your kids about this or keep them safe, or monitor them on the internet, all that information is on innocent lives foundation.org. [00:02:24] Chris: And if you can please support us. We are a nonprofit of 501 C3, so we can use donations to help us keep the mission alive. Last but not least. If you like the music, it's no other than Clutch. So visit them at clutchmerch.com. Give them some love. As anyone who listens to this podcast before knows, Neil helped me start the ILF eight and a half years ago. [00:02:41] Chris: He was one the first board members, so we're excited to, uh, of course, be featuring your music here. If you like this episode, give us a thumbs up, a like a heart, whatever it is, and the platform you're listening to, uh, that really helps us spread the word all over. Okay, Rosa, you picked the topic for this month. [00:02:57] Chris: Why did you pick. Pretexting [00:03:00] and our clothing. [00:03:03] Rosa: I have so many reasons why I did, but before I do, I want to let our listeners know that I am literally sitting here pinching myself right now because you know the story. Mm-hmm. I was working out the hotel a few years back and I would listen to this very podcast. [00:03:24] Rosa: I was working at the accounting department. And I was sitting there, you know, punching in numbers, listening to the podcast and thinking, wow, what a cool job that will be. And thinking, you know, I could never get that job. I have no background in the field. Um, but I just, I was fascinated by social engineering, by human psychology. [00:03:47] Rosa: And the fact that I am in the podcast right now, like, I don't know what to say. I don't know what to think really. Um, so yeah, if I space out. Here and there. Just [00:04:00] bear with me because I'm having a surreal moment right now. So I just wanted to put that out there. [00:04:04] Chris: That's kind of cool. But let's, let's take a look at something here because just to kind of say you've been, you said you had no background or anything. [00:04:09] Chris: Lemme look at the latest numbers. I think you are over, what is it, 17,000. Are you at? Yeah, you're over 17,000, aren't you? Vishing calls. [00:04:20] Rosa: Really? Wow. I don't, [00:04:22] Rosa: you know, I don't keep track of it, [00:04:23] Rosa: but it sounds about right. [00:04:25] Chris: I mean, in five years, that's kind of a crazy number if you think about it. It's. Like, there's not many people on earth that can claim to have done that much. [00:04:34] Chris: Vishing, even threat actor groups don't do that much vishing. So, so that's, that's pretty amazing, you know, and breaking into buildings and all this other stuff you got to do. So from a hotel accounting department to, uh, professional SE, that's kind of cool, which actually does fit our topic because I do remember when you first started. [00:04:53] Chris: Uh, like most people that start in this industry that have empathy and actually have a conscience, it's a difficult job to start [00:05:00] because you're, you're getting the nicest people on the planet on the phone, and then you're tricking them into doing something that they're gonna find out later. Was all a trap. [00:05:09] Chris: Right. Right. So, and you had a real problem with that. It was like hard. I remember you saying, I really don't, I really, I'm not sure if I can do this. Like, it's hard to lie to these people to trick them, you know, knowing they're gonna get educated or you know, they're gonna find out it was me that did this later. [00:05:23] Chris: So how important was pretexting and impersonation when it came to being able to get your mind around doing this job? [00:05:32] Rosa: For me, it was crucial, um, because as you know, I did struggle. Uh, there are times that the people that we speak with, they're giving us information about not only the flags that we're asking for, but they're talking about their family vacations, how they just had a recent newborn grandchild. [00:05:52] Rosa: And in those moments, I truly am there listening to their stories and. I just feel terrible [00:06:00] feeling like I've betrayed their trust in some way. So I told myself the only way that I'm gonna be able to get through this is to pretext with myself and make believe that I really am Jessica from HR and I'm gonna have to dress the part. [00:06:19] Rosa: I'm gonna have to create this persona, um, or whomever from it. So when I'm calling them, I don't necessarily feel that I'm lying to them or tricking them. I'm there to help them. I'm there to get them to complete the survey. And if they give me the information, then great. But I had to kind of do the whole pretext thing on myself and dress for the part and a lot of impersonation for sure. [00:06:46] Chris: I remember, um, for me it, it's a, it's a different, it's a little different. I remember my, one of my worst times I felt bad was I called as tech support to a guy and he actually had a computer problem that was just a printer issue. [00:07:00] And I'm like, I can fix this. So I actually walked him through reinstalling the driver. [00:07:04] Chris: And he's like, you are the best I.T guy we have, you know, Hey, we're throwing a, a, um, his daughter worked with him at the same company and she was getting married and they were throwing an engagement party for her. He's like, he's like, why don't you come off after work? You can come with us and you'll get a couple. [00:07:17] Chris: I felt so bad. Right. But for me it's different than, um, I keep telling myself for the years, if you think about it, like a, not that we're this, this level, but doctors and surgeons. They're, they're cutting into people. They're doing things that are not normal, but they're doing it to save your life or to help you. [00:07:37] Chris: Right? So yeah, we're, we're duping people, but, um, for us, at this company at least, we're very high on the ethics scale. So like, we don't use pretext that involve fear. We don't threaten to fire people. Uh, we don't use flirtation, you know, we don't use any of that kind of stuff. That later on when they do find out it was a test that now they feel bad about themselves because. [00:07:59] Chris: They, [00:08:00] they, they fell for something that was really, really malicious. Um, so for me, I just keep reminding myself of that, that this is gonna make them better and that kind of gets me through it. But Pretexting is, I think, one of the most important parts of this job because, um, when you think about it, the pretext that you choose could make or break your success on whether it's vishing or in person or whatever. [00:08:23] Chris: Um, 'cause we had that experience, right where we chose a pretext with you. We were breaking into a building. We did not think about, um, like changing your hair or giving you a hat or putting some mud on your face or something. And this guy just did not fall for that. You were a Johnson's control person, you know, getting dirty, you know, greasing, greasing the, the walls. [00:08:45] Rosa: You don't [00:08:45] Rosa: look like a technician, right? You, you can't go in, you just, well, he told us in the end he did let you go in, so. [00:08:54] Chris: So that's, I think it's a good lesson, right? Because when we are thinking about, um, our pretexts all, all the time, [00:09:00] you know, we have to constantly think about what we look like, our gender, our size, all that. [00:09:05] Chris: I mean, I cannot play a college kid anymore. Those days for me are gone, right? I used to be able to do that. Uh, not anymore. Right. So I'm too old for that. [00:09:15] Rosa: And middle aged people go to college too, so [00:09:17] Chris: Yeah. But remember, not it's, and it is possible that you can be my boss, and that is also true, but when we go breaking into a place Exactly. [00:09:24] Chris: We have to play on the bias. Right. Most college kids don don't like this. Yeah. [00:09:28] Rosa: No. Yeah. We, we can't get them to think. Too much because that for sure is going to break the pretext. We don't want that. [00:09:38] Chris: Yeah. And that's what happened to us at that, that control, that technician. Right. That we, he started thinking way too much. [00:09:44] Chris: But it was an interesting story 'cause uh, we talked about this with, with Shelby, um, on, when she was on the podcast, we had to pivot really fast. Because our previous pretext got blown at the last place. We only had two minutes to come up with a brand new one, so Right. We, we had to pivot. Yeah. So, you know, [00:10:00] we, we learned from our mistakes. [00:10:02] Chris: Right. And we still succeeded. Right. So that that was okay. [00:10:05] Rosa: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But as you said, it's important because it's not only for the targets to believe the story. You also get to believe the story. Um, for example, the one job that we did where I was playing a real estate agent [00:10:23] Chris: Yeah. [00:10:23] Rosa: And it was my first onsite engagement, and I'm thinking, I'm gonna be so nervous, I don't know how I'm gonna pull this off. [00:10:30] Rosa: Once I, I'm like, I'm dressed like a real estate agent. I have my business cards, I have my trusty clipboard. I look the part and why would anyone question me? So. That goes both ways. The pretext and impersonation has a great role in convincing others because you're painting a picture for them, but you're also painting that picture for yourself. [00:10:54] Rosa: Mm-hmm. And that gives you the confidence to act the part and not be [00:11:00] questioned as much. [00:11:01] Chris: And that was an interesting job because. The first woman who interacted with us said she knew every real estate agent in the town, and she knew there wasn't one named Jasmine, but she still didn't stop us when the boss let us in. [00:11:15] Chris: She never spoke up and said, wait, this can't be real. Like I know she's not really a real estate agent. And she let us go because we all acted the part, you know, I was a potential buyer. You were the real estate agent showing me the place and that guy let you and me into the server room unattended, right? [00:11:32] Chris: Yeah. He unlocked that door, opened it up, let us go in, and he walked out and we were in the server room, just like I remember that. [00:11:39] Rosa: At the end, you were like, Hey, do you want me to lock this door? He was like, uh, yeah, you probably should. [00:11:45] Chris: Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah. 'cause I was like, I'm feeling bad now. [00:11:48] Chris: We're like in there for minutes. Yeah. No one's stopping us. We could have, we could have hacked the whole place. We could have ruined the whole place. And I'm like, man, we should probably shut this, you know, before someone malicious actually does end up in here. You know, big [00:12:00] sign on the door. O authorized personnel only, you know? [00:12:03] Chris: Right. Yeah. So when you first started, I remember you were telling me, uh, how important it was on things that you would do in the morning to prepare for vishing to get into the character. So what were some of those things that, that you do to prepare? [00:12:19] Rosa: So I would have. A couple of outfits depending on the pretext. [00:12:24] Rosa: Um, if I was hr, I would dress up a little more and, uh, do my hair a little bit different. I have a certain piece of jewelry that I would wear that I would associate with that HR person. Um, I would go through the actual notes of who this person was, you know, what were her hobbies, where she worked, how long she had been there, who her manager was. [00:12:48] Rosa: And I would think about the things that this persona would embody, and then I would just kind of become her. And then if I was calling from IT, I would [00:13:00] have like a polo shirt, have my hair pulled back, and that would change my whole demeanor because I wouldn't be as nice per se. It would be more to the point like, Hey, you know, I'm kind of in a rush. [00:13:11] Rosa: I have a bunch of people to do updates on, so let's get this done. So that would really help me to get into the role. And you could even tell again through. My voice because with body language is more than just what people can see. Mm-hmm. It's also in your tone, your pace, and how you, um, I would also try to emulate the people that I spoke to, if they were like. [00:13:37] Rosa: Really fast speakers and they wanted to get to the point, I would want to match that. Mm-hmm. Or if they kind of spoke a little bit slower and needed a little bit more information, I would try to match their tone, match their speed. So all of that plays into a pretext as well. [00:13:53] Chris: You know, and this is not just, um, like a game because there's actually science behind this. [00:13:57] Chris: There's a really interesting study called [00:14:00] Enclothed cognition, and these researchers, they took a white coat. They told a group of students that this was a, a, a professor's coat, like from a lab, and then the same coat, they gave it to another group of students and said that this was a painter's jacket. [00:14:14] Chris: And as they were made to wear these jackets, they took tests. And the same, same test for all, all the students. And what they found is that the students who wore it as a professor's coat a lab coat did better, did the work faster, and gained higher scores. And those who wore as a blue collar worker did the test slower and got lower scores. [00:14:36] Chris: And when they interviewed them later on, it was that when they dressed a certain part, they began to think like that. So they begin to think more analytically on the test of when they were a, when they were a lab, uh, scientist than when they were a blue collar worker. And when, you know, the study wasn't saying, oh, all blue collar workers are are dumber. [00:14:54] Chris: That's not, that's not the case. It was how the clothing affected performance. So I've, when I [00:15:00] read that many, many years ago, and I remember now, ever since I read that, I tell everyone that works here. Like, just because we all work from home. Don't wear your pajamas. 'cause that will affect, you know, I mean, I come 15 feet from my, from my main room to, to my office. [00:15:13] Chris: And when I leave my office at night, that's when I put my shorts on and now it's, I'm done with work. Right. I'm done with the office day. Doesn't mean I'm done with work. Everyone knows that, but Right. Yeah. You know. [00:15:22] Rosa: No you're not. [00:15:23] Chris: Yeah. But you know, but you're done with the day of work and I think that's really important. [00:15:27] Chris: And that applies directly into. Pretexting, no matter what you're doing, right? So it's not just social engineering. If you're gonna go in for a job interview, I remember once I interviewed this woman for a job and she came to the interview in a sweatshirt and pajama bottoms on on Zoom, right? And that threw me off, first of all. [00:15:47] Chris: Like I'm like, that is not professional. And then I said, oh, you know, she was on her couch in the living room. And I said, oh, you know, we really encourage everyone to have an office because working where you live. You know, messes with your head. She goes, oh, I have an office. [00:16:00] And I'm like, so why aren't we doing the interview from your office? [00:16:03] Chris: Right. And it was like, it was very off-putting to see like that person coming for a job interview and not treating it like you would if you were in person. That really turned me off with that, you know, and obviously she didn't get the job here, but, um, that, it's interesting to note that this kind of science-based thought, it works in every aspect of our life, not just not just, uh, social engineering. [00:16:26] Rosa: Yeah. Yeah, I found that to be true. Even, um, there was a time I was, I dunno if I was at the hotel, I was dressed very professionally and I went to a restaurant, I think it was lunchtime, and there was another one of my colleagues, and she was dressed more casual. And the lady behind the counter was telling me, oh, you know, I'm gonna get your stuff right away. [00:16:49] Rosa: I'm gonna be sure that you get it right away. And then the other one was waiting for. Like 10 more minutes than I was. And I told her, well, I think she was here before me. She said, yeah, [00:17:00] but you look like you have a meeting to go to. You look like you're, you know, you're a business woman and you're in a rush. [00:17:05] Rosa: I wanna make sure that I get, so it does have an impact in our day-to-day interactions as well. [00:17:13] Chris: Clothing. It's a, it's an authority symbol, right? I mean, you see someone in an expensive suit or dress and you, you are like, wow, that person must be important. Even that might not even be true, but that's the way our brain just, just think. [00:17:23] Chris: Right? It's, it's kind of an interesting way of, of using Pretexting. So I know like, so you said you've been here five years and you've done a lot of different things here at the company. Actually, I think almost everything that we do, you've done, um, and I've always been pushing you to, to give a speech. I thought, because I think you'd be great at it. [00:17:42] Chris: 'cause you, you naturally, you're, you're, you can stand up in front of thousands of people and sing like on a whim. Bam. Not even practice, just start singing. And you, you can sing. I mean, you sang at a class once you brought people to tears. That's how good it was. But yet you were always like, I'm never gonna give a speech. [00:17:59] Chris: But you just [00:18:00] did. Right? You just gave a speech this past year at BSides in Orlando. [00:18:04] Rosa: I did, yeah. [00:18:06] Chris: That, how did you overcome that? [00:18:10] Rosa: An experiment we'll say. As you said, I don't have a problem getting in front of a crowd and singing and I don't know what it is. Something switches for me. Um, I guess the music side of it, I, it is just like I leave the room. [00:18:27] Rosa: Something switches for me, the thought of having to be present and engaging and having to look people in the eye and maybe having them ask me questions. Feeling like I'm on the spot. That was so terrifying for me that I told you flat out, I am never gonna do that. Yeah. So just take me out, whatever speaking rotation, just take me out because it's not gonna happen for me. [00:18:53] Rosa: So I kind of started to look at all the principles of influence that [00:19:00] we use on the people that we work with, and they work. Yes, we're good at what we do, but they work because people are humans. People are people. So we have scientific proof that this works. [00:19:17] Chris: Mm-hmm. [00:19:18] Rosa: So I started to think if these principles of influence work to convince people to take an action that they normally would not, would these principles of influence work the same way if I use them on me? [00:19:34] Chris: Hmm. [00:19:35] Rosa: So I started to think about that idea and I started to create a pretext for myself and what would be my reasons for wanting to give the speech. And then the word speech scared me, so I applied reframing. So it's no longer a speech, it was a conversation [00:20:00] or a presentation. So now I'm telling myself I'm gonna stand up there and I'm gonna have a conversation. [00:20:07] Rosa: I'm gonna talk to people about what I do every day. It's not a speech, it's just a conversation. [00:20:13] Chris: I love it. [00:20:13] Rosa: And then I'm like, yeah, but you know, people are gonna be looking at me and I have to interact and I have to kind of play the part. I'm like, okay, so play the part impersonation. You broke into buildings with impersonation. [00:20:27] Rosa: You dress the part for those roles. [00:20:31] Chris: Were armed buildings, by [00:20:31] Chris: the way, armed buildings, like that's way more dangerous than getting asked a question at a speech, right? [00:20:38] Rosa: So I'm like, okay, I'm gonna create this very professional persona that knows what she's talking about. I'm gonna dress the part. So between pretexting impersonation, reframing, um, and also having other, I would say, um, social proof, like seeing my peers do this as well.[00:21:00] [00:21:00] Rosa: Especially Shelby. She, I know she was very anxious, uh, to speak herself and then to see her do so well that really inspired me. I'm like, so, okay, so we have social proof, we have impersonation, we have pretexting, we have reframing, the reframing all of these principles of social engineering, the field that I can name now. [00:21:22] Rosa: Um, so with all that put together, I decided to apply for BSides. I got selected and then the day come around and I'm like, okay, I don't know how this is gonna go. But once I got up there with all of these different principles of influence, I felt a little rushed, but not that paralyzing fear or that like, nauseous, I'm gonna throw up, I'm gonna faint. [00:21:48] Rosa: Nothing like that. I, I'm still surprised that it worked so well, so. [00:21:53] Chris: Not, not only that, [00:21:54] Chris: but then from what I was told you gave, you had people lining up with questions, people lining up to chat with you [00:22:00] afterward. I mean, think about this, who else in that room can say they've made 17,000 vishing calls besides Shelby? [00:22:09] Chris: Nobody on Earth can say that, right? So, I mean, Carter, who's relatively new here, he just gave his first speech too, and he's at, I think, the 7,000 mark. People were astounded by that because that number doesn't make sense. I mean, remember when Patrick told us where he worked before he worked here, that their average calls were maybe six to eight a month? [00:22:31] Chris: I mean six to eight a month. You guys are doing like 10 an hour, right? I mean six to eight a month. Like that's crazy, right? So. I, I think that you add the authority principle because you are a subject matter expert in that. And then you said you put the right, the, you, you, you picked an outfit that made you feel like you were gonna get up there and rock it. [00:22:50] Chris: You know, you, you, um, you reframed it from speech, which scared you to conversation and having heard your speech, it was very conversational. I mean, you, you interacted with [00:23:00] the audience throughout the whole thing. It wasn't just, Hey, listen to me yap for this time, and then ask me questions. I mean, you had them interacting with you throughout the whole, the whole thing. [00:23:09] Chris: That is like, to me a powerful lesson on pre-texting and impersonation, because after that, now think about it. You've put in applications all over the place to give speeches without having to be told any, I didn't even ask you to do that. You're like, come to me like, Hey, I put an application [00:23:24] Rosa: because [00:23:24] Rosa: I wanna, prove this theory, I'm the kind of person [00:23:26] Rosa: when I did FASE, um, and again, that was. [00:23:31] Rosa: So life changing for me because I am a true introvert and part of what we do in FASE is we have to go out, we have to apply these principles, start conversations with people and elicit information, um, in an ethical way, of course. And I'm like, there's no way that I can do that. So I applied these things and when I went out and it worked. [00:23:53] Rosa: I'm like, no, that must have been a fluke. I have to keep doing it. So now I have to keep doing this [00:24:00] to prove to myself that this experiment is working. So that's why I am so willing to give speeches now or have conversations, let's put it that way. [00:24:11] Chris: I like it because I think that that's a great way of approaching things, right? [00:24:14] Chris: I mean, you, you did it once and it was successful, but now you need to prove like, was it just a fluke? Or, or can I actually make this? I think that's, I think that's the way with almost anything, you know, in, in life. I mean, I remember my first time, um, getting paid to break into a building. I was scared outta my mind, you know? [00:24:32] Chris: I'm like, who is gonna let me just walk into a building in broad daylight? Who's gonna actually just let me do this thing? You know? Like, it just, it didn't make sense why anyone would not stop me. Like, I know I'm not the, the, the pest control guy, like, how are they gonna believe this? But man, walked all the way into the place twice up to the C level, sat at the CEO's desk. [00:24:57] Chris: I mean, you know, it's just, it's kind of crazy. And after [00:25:00] that I was like. Okay, this stuff actually works. But it was all the same things you said. I mean, we had a pest control outfit. I had spray cans, you know, with filled with fake liquid. I had, you know, all the, all the things that, that made it seem like we were actually pest control people. [00:25:13] Chris: So I say this, this really does work. And I've applied that throughout my career, not just in social engineering. I've done that when. Um, I'm sitting in front of clients and, you know, potential clients that we're trying to close deals, or if I'm trying to negotiate something with a partner or something like that, I've used these principles in the same method throughout, throughout all of it like that. [00:25:34] Chris: So it's, it's a, it's interesting principles, and I'm glad you chose this topic. This is a really, this is a really cool one, especially since you've used it successfully on yourself multiple times, [00:25:45] Rosa: right? Yeah. But we, I think a lot of us use these principles without even knowing. In our daily lives. Mm-hmm. [00:25:54] Rosa: Um, I do recall back in high school, and I think this is how I ended up singing at that [00:26:00] FASE class at one time, because I told this story, my music teacher wanted me to sing opera. [00:26:07] Chris: Yeah. [00:26:09] Rosa: And you know, I'm 16 years old and I'm thinking, no way. I'm not gonna stand in front of the school and sing opera. That's not gonna happen. [00:26:19] Rosa: But. The interesting thing is during our lunch breaks, I would sing opera in the classroom because I wanted to experiment that part of my vocal ability. And he's like, no, you're good. You have to do this. You have to. I'm like, no. So the only way that I got through it was because I embodied that particular singer it. [00:26:42] Rosa: It was Kathleen Battle. Um. So I, when I went up to that stage, I wasn't me, I was Kathleen, battle on stage, Uhhuh, and all of a sudden the nerves left me. I didn't care who was watching me and I got through it. And that just [00:27:00] goes to show the power that Pretexting impersonation and all these different principles of influence have. [00:27:08] Chris: So you actually were training for this job. Well before you even knew that this was a job, right? Right. I mean, at 16 you were using these things. So the, the hotel accountant, Rosa sitting there listening to this podcast thinking, I can never do that. You were doing it. You were doing it since you were a little girl. [00:27:28] Chris: So that's kind of amazing. That's really cool. That's a really cool story. And yes, that is a story you told. Then everyone was like, you can sing opera, and it was quite amazing actually. I have videos of it if anybody wants to. It's [00:27:41] Rosa: been, no, no, no. [00:27:43] Chris: I have videos of it. [00:27:44] Chris: Just reach out to me. Be more than happy to share with anyone on the internet. [00:27:47] Chris: Just gi gimme a, gimme a ping. [00:27:49] Rosa: No one wants to see that or hear that. I had not sang opera like that in years, so it was a bit rough. [00:27:55] Chris: But, um, you are very hard on yourself. But the fact is that grown men cried in [00:28:00] that class because of how beautiful it was. So. [00:28:03] Rosa: It was just a high pitch. Hurt their ears. [00:28:07] Chris: Yeah. [00:28:08] Chris: Uh, well Rosa, this was a great topic, great conversation. We won't even call it a podcast. We'll just say conversation. Yes. Um, so I think, uh, so anyone listening to this, there's a lot to learn and to practice to utilize this. So you have any advice, uh, closing advice for anyone who wants to practice these skills to get better at them? [00:28:27] Rosa: Um, well, I would say take a look at our blogs and all the information that we have, um, covering these topics and covering the different principles of influence. And just pick one. Mm-hmm. Pick one, uh, maybe on the weekend when you're out and about and see how it works out for you. And I promise you, you're gonna be shocked. [00:28:49] Rosa: Because I was, so, I, it's a challenge. Go out there and try at least one of these principles of influence and let us know. May reach out to me on LinkedIn, let [00:29:00] me know how it goes. [00:29:01] Chris: Awesome. Well, everyone, I hope you enjoyed this episode. As much as I enjoyed recording it, this topic is always something that interests me. [00:29:08] Chris: I hope you've enjoyed it. Uh, next month we'll be back with another team member, Josten will be with us, and we'll have a whole new topic we'll be talking about on the security awareness series. Thanks for joining us. Stay safe till next month. See ya.